Welcome to the first episode of Liquid: How CFOs Outperform. Join Tom and Holly as they chat with none other than Kyriba’s CEO, Melissa Di Donato, and CFO, Adam Drew.
Welcome to the first episode of Liquid: How CFOs Outperform!
In this episode, hosts Tom Gavaghan and Holly McNulty are joined by Kyriba's CEO, Melissa Di Donato, and CFO, Adam Drew. Melissa and Adam discuss their career journeys, the dynamic relationship between the CEO and CFO, and the importance of data-driven decision-making. They also discuss the role of adaptability in leadership, the significance of diversity within their team, and the critical nature of effective communication in driving success.
Melissa, Kyriba CEO
“ It really is a Batman and Robin thing. It's something that you really need to put a lot of work into because one depends upon the other greatly. And the better the relationship, the much more profound output that one will always get. We depend upon each other. We work together and we must always be on the same page."
Adam, Kyriba CFO
“The relationship between CEO and CFO is probably the most important relationship in any company. To Melissa's point, a good CEO, particularly ones trying to be great, should be looking to absolutely push the envelope...If Melissa can be the dreamer, one of us has to be the realist, and that often falls on me. But once you've got that balance, then the numbers just support it.”
Links & Resources:
Connect with Melissa Di Donato
[00:00:10] Tom Gavaghan: Welcome to Liquid: How CFOs Outperform. I'm your host, Tom Gavaghan.
[00:00:15] Holly McNulty: And I'm Holly McNulty, Solution Engineer here at Kyriba, and former Treasury Practitioner.
[00:00:20] Tom Gavaghan: Today, Holly and I are joined by two very special guests. Our CEO, Melissa Di Donato, and our CFO, Adam Drew, both of you, thank you guys so much for joining.
Very much excited about our conversation here today. And we'll just jump right in. And Melissa, if you don't mind me, uh, starting with you. I'd love to ask you, what would five year old you think of you today?
[00:00:44] Melissa Di Donato: What would five year old me think of me today? Well, first of all, um, you know, I grew up in a household where my mother used to tell me, uh, dress for the job you want, not the job you have.
So the five year old me would think I should be wearing a princess dress right now, and I'm not. So that really stings, first of all. Um, so I think the five year old me would say, where's your princess dress? Number one. Uh, number two, how in the world did you get that job? Um, and you should be wearing something much more comfortable than what you got.
Um, I think that the five year old me probably believed a whole lot at that stage of my life in superheroes. So perhaps I might also say to oneself or myself, um, you know, besides your princess dress, you know, where's your superpower outfit? Um, they would think that perhaps Adam needs to be walking around like in a number suit, like in the Sesame Street days, probably, because he's a CFO, and maybe, maybe I need to be walking around with a cape, a bright pink one, of course, um, and a headband, uh, to be maybe perhaps a Wonder Woman version of myself.
But I, I think they probably would think that, um, the five year old self would be very proud of me for getting here. And probably think it's, it's very normal to be, uh, a female CEO, so that, that would also be very welcomed.
[00:01:52] Holly McNulty: That's awesome. I love that. So Adam, what would five year old you think of being a CFO?
[00:01:59] Adam Drew: So, I mean, it's a really interesting question, and I don't think five year old me would have even known what a CFO was. If you told me that it was something to do with numbers, I'd probably have been pretty, pretty thrilled. I loved numbers all the way through school, wanted to be, you know, a statistician for years.
Thankfully, didn't end up doing that. And I think, you know, when I was five back in school, careers to me were just big ticket items, right? We saw teachers around us, we saw doctors around us, we saw people who worked in offices, and I couldn't really have distinguished between any of them. And it wasn't really until I was in my twenties.
Probably in my 20s that I even thought about what a career path might look like. Uh, CFO ambitions even later, you know, I was, I was in accounting practice until I was into my 30s. So didn't even dream of climbing the corporate ladder. And, and I guess, you know. As we go through the podcast today, you'll probably see a theme that Melissa is, uh, is probably a little less restrained than I am, but, uh, work was always just something.
[00:03:02] Melissa Di Donato: Oh, I don't know what that means, does it?
[00:03:06] Adam Drew: When I was, when I was in school, work was just something that went on while all the kids were in school. Um, you know, people went to factories or they went to office buildings with, with people toiling away. So the fact that I, I love my job and I really enjoy my job now, at least that would have given me something to look forward to, I think.
[00:03:23] Tom Gavaghan: Can relate there, Adam. I think there's a lot of, uh, At that age, you don't know about these jobs, right? Especially also in technology, even going through, you know, higher ed. You're unaware of these roles that are out there. I think it's quite fascinating what you can uncover. So I do appreciate that. As finance leaders, there's a lot of moving parts, uh, in our work.
Uh, we're always looking to outgrow, outperform, outlast the competition. So this first segment is what we call. The chief outperformance officer. Okay. So I want to start with you, uh, Melissa again, and I want to ask your opinion and your viewpoint on the relationship between the CEO and the CFO and why it's so important, what do CEOs rely on your CFO?
[00:04:06] Melissa Di Donato: Not, that is a great question because, um, this is something that Adam and I don't talk a lot about, but yet we talk a lot about it. And when we first started talking about Adam joining me here at Kyriba, We reflected on our previous relationship, and we talked about what makes a successful team, and how do the CEO and CFO work together.
It really is a Batman and Robin thing. It's something that you really need to put a lot of work into, because one depends upon the other greatly. And the better the relationship, the much more profound output that one will always get. We depend upon each other. We work together and we must always be on the same page.
You know, Adam needs to understand deeply about what I'm thinking and about how I'm planning to move the company forward from a strategic perspective. He has very quickly abandoned his accountant roots in effort to try and provide financial data to make better business decisions with me. And that's really, really important.
So I think that that whole, you know, Yin and Yang, Batman and Robin routine is critically important when it comes to The best operational strategic relationships between a CFO and a CEO. I mean, I, for one, am a very driven CEO based, making decisions based on data. Everything I do has to do with a foundation, and that foundation is always due to data, and a lot of that data is financial.
And that data needs to come from out of it in a very, um, proactive way rather than a reactive way. But the good thing about Adam, as he already said, I'm a bit more, I don't know what, what's the word that you used, Adam, but perhaps I'm quite energetic. Um, I'm quite, um, a big dreamer. I'm very focused. I'm a fast mover.
And he does help keep me grounded. He doesn't slow me down. That's for sure. I think, Tom, you could probably attest to that. But he does help us in a way of focus, um, regardless of how big or grand or how visionary all of the ideas that I put forward could be. And that all starts in the rooted relationship between the CEO and CFO that must be based on data that's originated with trust and transparency.
So I think he, he really helps. I would never say control my ambitions, but balance is my ambitions and my very, very big dreams for this company and for my customers in the roots of what our financial reality. He and I and the entire leadership team laugh a lot. Um, you've got to have a sense of humor when it comes to working with me and Adam for the, for the record.
But I, I think it's really critical that when we look at the relationship between a CEO and CFO. And why that's so important is because the CEO tends to often times, not always, but often times, be the big dreamer, the strategic thinker, the one pushing everyone forward. And the other hand, the CFO needs to be on that journey too, needs to share the dreams and the vision.
But root the decision making based on financial agility, but financial reality, and bringing forward the data that's going to help make, enable us to make better business decisions.
[00:06:57] Holly McNulty: The balance thing is really, really important. And so I'm interested to hear your side of this conversation, Adam. So what's your perspective on this partnership?
[00:07:06] Adam Drew: Yeah, I think, you know, the relationship between CEO and CFO is probably the most important relationship in any company. To add. To Melissa's point, any good CEO, uh, particularly ones trying to be great, should be looking to absolutely push the envelope on what the company can, can do and can achieve. And the reality is if they aren't aiming beyond that envelope, then you'd probably question the level of ambition.
Right. And, uh, and if anything, Melissa does love to push on the edges of that, that envelope. But I think what that means is that the CFO role really becomes twofold. You have to be the data person. Like this. There are plenty of people in that room around the executive committee. And everybody's got ideas and everybody's got ambitions and everybody's got dreams, but it all comes back to the data.
And I think that's where we're really, I come in or any CFO should come in. And that's data in terms of numbers, but also, you know, just keeping that eye on being the steward of the business. Where's the business going? What are you trying to do? And ultimately, are you heading in the right direction for all the objectives that you've set yourself?
And I suppose with, with Melissa. You know, if Melissa can be the dreamer, uh, one of us has to be the realist, and that often falls on me. Um, but once you've got that balance right, then, then the numbers just support it, right? The, you, you trust your gut feel, you trust your instinct, but you make sure that you're doing so on a solid foundation.
Ultimately, in the best circumstances, you know, the data's just there to tell you which option to choose. You know, you can come up with a whole plethora of different things, different opportunities, and really then it's, you know, it's Melissa's dreams versus my reality, but we normally get to the best outcome.
[00:09:00] Tom Gavaghan: I think, yeah, I learned quickly, Melissa, like you said, um, as you came on board, you're very data driven, um, and Adam, I've learned from you, you are, uh, mathematical minded, right? So I guess that, that, that partnership really, really helps out, but I'd like to kind of double click on that a little bit. Melissa, you've shared before with me and others your diverse background.
You've been in pre sales, so a little bit close to the heart here as well, but I wouldn't mind you kind of going in a little bit deeper about that. The diversity of your experience and how that blends with working with Adam as well, who also has his own unique and different experience and the inner workings there.
[00:09:35] Melissa Di Donato: So, Tom, you're right. The criticality, it's more than just importance, it's the criticality. around diversity of experience really helps set apart the good companies from the great companies in my opinion. Now, I had been fortunate enough to have a front seat, um, in, you know, a front row seat, really, in technology over the last 25 plus years.
That's all I've ever done. I came out of uni and, and, and college and went straight into tech. So, I've always been in the same industry. Now, a variety of different types of companies, everything from a small, growing, Emerging and large enterprise software businesses, so companies of all sizes, um, but the technologies have all been different and diversity of thought has really been a key underlying tenant for me of not just developing a different viewpoint, but, but really developing better outcomes and, and, you know, and it's not just because I'm a woman, therefore I become diverse.
It's, that's not related at all. I think Really genuinely, having a room full of people that have the same background, the same way of thinking, the same understanding is gonna end up with the same answer. And that's not what you want. You want diversity to develop a diversity, um, and innovation in the way of thinking, right?
You want diversity of thought and innovation. It almost can't reach its full potential unless there's diversity in the room and broad representation in the room of different experiences. And it's not about everyone getting the same training at SAP, getting the same training by working at Oracle. It's about taking a consortium of people with very different backgrounds, very different viewpoints.
And you can see from uh, Our executive team, I mean, our executive team, the majority of our executive team holds a passport that's, and lives in a country, more than one passport, but lives in a country that's different from where they were born. Um, has completely different backgrounds, has completely different, uh, languages of origin.
Um, grew up in completely different ways, look different, act different, speak different. And that's what I think makes this company, um, set apart from probably a lot of our competitors or a lot of anybody else in the technology industry. Um, Adam's journey to becoming a CFO is completely different from my journey to becoming a CEO.
And that's really important, right? We have to face different kinds of pressures and experiences and challenges, not just to become what we are today, but to overcome. The future challenges that we're going to face that we don't even know what they're going to be yet. Um, and that being the case, it covers more opportunities.
It makes us more innovative. It makes us more broad brush when it comes to creating better solutions and communicating with different types of customers. We operate in dozens of countries around the world with customers of five employees all the way through 500, 000 employees. Literally, there's people all over the world through their, their different direct and indirect.
Customer base as well as their employee base and being able to communicate with them. We are awarded to be able to be able to communicate with our customers because we all have different approaches and different viewpoints. And, you know, our XCO bringing that wider diverse in experiences into what we would say, you know, big humongous melting pot of diversity allows us to realize the strengths of our company and thereby Better able to be positioned to communicate with our customers, our partners, and our communities in a much, much broader, much better. Um, more enriching.
[00:12:53] Tom Gavaghan: You know, I'm not just saying it because you're our CEO, but of course, I agree. I do believe our XCO truly represents our, the broader Kyriba organization. And as you said, Melissa, our, who, who we serve, the market we serve. And it's one of the things that truly, truly, you know, energizes me day in and day out being able to start my day talking to people in Europe and, and my evening talking to people in, in Asia.
Uh, it is, uh, part, one of the, my favorite parts about working at Kyriba. But I think also, Adam, if you don't mind chiming in there again, you kind of already elaborated to your route to becoming a CFO, but like Melissa said, just completely different experience on, on your journey, but important as it relates to how we are working together and growing this company and so on.
But can you share your, your opinion on that?
[00:13:37] Adam Drew: Yeah, I think you're right, Tom and Melissa, of course. I mean, my, My route to CFO, whilst not the same as Melissa's in terms of tech, it was pretty linear. You know, I did an accounting degree, I joined one of the big accounting firms for qualifiers and accountants, uh, then I did a controller role, then I did a commercial role and, and eventually got my, my seat at the, the executive level.
And then you throw in a mix of public companies, private companies, owner managed businesses, uh, and more recently private equity. And, and I think I've got most bases covered in terms of, You know, where I've worked and how I've worked. But I think when it comes to Melissa, you know, one of the, the main reasons that we work so well together is, I, I love using finance to tell stories, right?
It's what pulled me to finance in the first place. Everything across any organization always finds its way into the numbers some way. You know, if you're selling a product particularly well, you get a boost. If you get an issue with an employee or an issue with Uh, with, you know, a legal case or something else, you get to dig into the detail, you get to take everything on its merits, and you get to see that side of the business as well.
And I think, you know, whilst everything has a financial impact, it's really being able to pull those strands together to tell the company's story that, You know, I, I absolutely love that in my role, and I guess the last point I'd make, you know, Melissa is tech, tech, tech. She's had, you know, she's had the roles, she's been in that driving seat in, in a number of companies.
I'm not right. My, my tech journey only really started about three, three or four years ago. This is my, my second tech company. But I think it's, it's our different views of the world, you know, that that's what means that we have most angles covered between us. Even before you consider. Just how diverse and the breadth of experience that we've got alongside us on our executive committee.
It really is differences rather than similarities which give us the ability to work well together.
[00:15:36] Holly McNulty: Yeah, I love that. I think that's great. So, I'd like to shift into some more financial topics. So, as leaders, What are you looking to your treasury team for? Um, like, are there any unexpected ways that the treasury team is having a direct impact on strategic initiatives or the company?
And we'll start with you, Adam.
[00:15:59] Adam Drew: Yeah, so, I mean, job number one for treasury is always making sure the company has cash. You know, whether it's cash on hand, whether it's, you know, arranging overdraft facilities or lending facilities, or any combination of those, cash always has been king. And the reality is, certainly for the length of my career, cash is always going to be king.
It's not just about having cash though, and it's not just about moving money around bank accounts, it's, it's forecasting that cash, it's know that you're going to have enough cash at the end of the month, the end of the quarter. Uh, it's managing cash resistance around your end, and then ultimately, you know, if you can get enough cash, you've then got the nice problem of what do you do with it?
How do you best deploy those resources? And really that's where treasury, uh, comes into its own. I think beyond that, in terms of, you know, strategic initiatives, company growth, any of those things, how treasury interacts with those is typically company dependent. But what I would say is it always comes back to risk.
It could be FX risk, it can be inflation risk, it can be commodity prices, it can be any combination of any number of financial risks. They will differ depending on nature, size, and complexity of whatever organization you're working in. But they're all monitored and they're all mitigated by an effective treasury function.
Balancing risk against company objectives is, is where treasury really delivers value.
[00:17:25] Holly McNulty: What does the CEO need to understand about the importance of treasurers and CFOs working together, Melissa?
[00:17:36] Melissa Di Donato: I mean, that's an interesting question because one would assume that the treasurers work exclusively with the CFOs.
And I would say that's not actually true. Um, when I was the CEO of a publicly listed company, I cared a whole lot about our cash, just for the record. And, and in fact, on earnings calls every quarter, uh, that I was the CEO, every earnings, I was asked questions about liquidity. So it's, it's not an exclusive relationship that the CEO needs or wants to have.
So, um, This is a very exciting story, um, to be a part of, to be an agent of this All right. That, you know, our Liquidity Performance Platform covers is a CEO topic, not exclusively a CFO topic, because everything's connected, right?
And the relationship between a CFO and a treasurer, and a treasurer and a CEO, and a CEO and a CFO is holistic in nature. And yes, indeed, Adam does oversee, um, the more, you know, the broader, um, And frankly, detailed financial strategy. Maybe, maybe the CFO is focused on the detailed financial strategy and I'm focused on the broader financial strategy.
Um, but I care deeply about planning and reporting and, and thereby collaboration is required even for me when it comes to treasury. And thereby, that treasurer relationship with the CFO is, which we referred to earlier, the foundation of the house that, that needs to be incorporated when you're creating any kind of business strategy.
When you're thinking about planning and reporting And long term and short term strategic planning, liquidity, performance, investments, risk, payments, um, ultimately is the heart, the beating heart of the company's financial operations. And if that's not sound, and if that's not uncovered, and working collaboratively with the CEO and the CFO, then no business plan in my view could be tactically effective.
It just will not work. Um, but when it works well, it works really bloody well. And that idea of strategically sound details, information, and planning that really get fed in tactically and effectively to the overall corporate plan delivers financial stability and really helps propel sustained financial growth.
I mean, you know, Adam probably wants to add to this, but, um, you know, because he's a CFO, so I'm talking about from the CEO lens, um, and how important, um, you know, that relationship is. I mean, but to me, I depend very heavily on Adam to oversee the relationship, but also to uncover things like financial risk and compliance.
A treasurer will inevitably have deep expertise when it comes to risk management, um, that complements my oversight of financial reporting and Adam's deep oversight and insights to financial reporting and overall company controls. But together, the CFO and the treasurer will help protect us, help protect me, right, potentially from the company, um, and the company as a whole from financial pitfalls.
Any kind of regulatory issues, um, you know, and compliance issues, really creating that stable foundation that I need to be able to execute on our company's strategic objectives and plans. So, You know, I would say that whilst the, the, the, the dynamic duo of a CFO and treasurer are critically important for me and keeping us safe and sound, it's a really important relationship for me to have too.
And by the way, for every CEO, and you don't need to be the CEO of a publicly listed company to have an important and viable and critical relationship with your treasurer, right? You're talking about the company's value. performance that will drive so many decisions strategically and tactically, but also protects you from financial risk and compliance.
So it's, it is a triad relationship that I think if run well, Makes a company unstoppable.
[00:21:32] Adam Drew: I think that's true, Melissa. You know, risk, that really is at the heart of everything that a treasurer should be doing. You mentioned the expertise that treasurers typically have. And as CFO, that risk is always front of my mind.
Nobody wants to be the CFO of a business that runs out of cash. It'd be even worse if you were the CFO of a business who ran out of cash and didn't see it coming in time to deal with it. And ultimately, if I haven't got complete confidence in how we forecast our cash and the fact that those financial risks and compliance are on point, I just can't do the rest of my role properly or effectively.
[00:22:11] Tom Gavaghan: Let's double click on that a little bit on the risk management aspect because it obviously is so critically important. Because there's always something on the horizon, right? And a lot of scar tissue of recent things, whether it's, uh, you know, the banking collapses that we saw last year in the Americas, or the, you know, even, you know, the pandemic does not seem, and the isolation we went through does not seem like it was that long ago, and obviously a lot of geopolitical activities on the horizon and currently going on.
So I'll go to you, Melissa, and just ask, you know, how do you approach, uh, risk management and decision making in, in high stakes situations where we live in a world where like things just change every day, it seems.
[00:22:50] Melissa Di Donato: Things totally change every day. Um, and you know, it's funny you said something about, you know, COVID not being that far away.
It feels like it was forever ago, and it feels like it was yesterday at the same time.
[00:22:59] Tom Gavaghan: It's hard to explain. It's
[00:23:01] Melissa Di Donato: a phenomenon that like so many of us now have lived through that I, by the way, never want to have again, just for the record. No, no, we don't, we don't want it again. But as a CEO and CFO, you always plan for it, right?
So I always say, This is our plan, this is our goal, this is how we're managing risk, right? Uh, and then there's like a whole other layer of risk, uh, in, in, that one needs to think about and manage in, in very high stake environments. And I think, You know, a couple of things have helped train me and teach me, um, how to manage and approach risk in a new way.
Um, you know, I spent a lot of time in the last year and a half with the UK government and understanding, um, the volatility, right, and how fluid the world could be, um, from a government's perspective in serving people has helped me become a better CEO. There's no doubt about it because, um, it taught me what real, um, you know, a service led Um, approach is, you know, how I am in this role to serve my employees, my partners, and my customers.
I'm not here to serve me. Like, this is not about, about me or my role or how much I make. It's much, it's only about how I can serve and, and serving the best way. One really needs to act quickly. I mean, I'm, I'm a big proponent of pressure makes diamonds. Um, so I love the pressure, but one needs to act quickly.
But one needs to build on their expertise and their experiences. And sometimes a bit of high stake quick decision making, particularly around risk, um, it takes too long to make decisions. An early mentor of mine said, it's far worse to make no decision than a bad decision, because a very quick bad decision you can undo.
And part of making You know, the best decisions you possibly can is understanding what your gut's telling you to do. And the gut is not flippant, it's not, it's not reckless, but it's having been through enough scenarios and experiences and been around long enough. Um, not me, I'm young, but I mean other people.
Perhaps this is advice for the others, for the, for the, for the younger people. Not, not, not for me. Um, but I've been around long enough, I guess, to say that, um, my experience has given me the ability to, to pull on my gut, to understand the difference between right and wrong. Understand the difference, difference between high risk, medium risk, low risk, and, and, and help evaluate how to make decisions based a little bit on gut.
Now, I don't make gut decisions all the time. My decisions are made on data. But if you need to couple data with gut, I think it's a really good way because sometimes, um, and most people say your gut, um, does, isn't usually wrong, but what's more important than gut and that's data, and if you can get the two things right, you're, you're, you're, you're managing risk, fast decision making, and optimizing the best outcome in the best way.
Because data doesn't lie, right? And, and Adam said earlier, and Tom, you know, everything, I always ask for data. I mean, at nausea, I'm constantly, I drive my team absolutely bonkers, because I'm constantly using data. And it's about using, um, not just historical data, because history changes, but informed data, right?
You want to try and eliminate potential risk, take out guesswork of the equation by using Some level of historical data, but using current insights too, and that will provide even a better output. Um, if you have your gut operating with expert, um, with data and expert, let's say expert advice, right? So if you take your gut with data and expert advice, and then put it all together, I think you got a magic formula for potentially planning ahead.
I mean, what Adam and I do is we always hope for the best and plan for the worst, right? We always say, this is our forecast, I want more. My mother says, I'm never satisfied. There could be a little bit of truth to that, I think. Um, but whilst I'm never, um, fully satisfied, I always prepare to fail, but fail very, very fast.
And if you prepare for the worst and plan ahead for that. Um, you're going to be able to have much faster, much more informed decision making that's likely to be far better and we have a successful rate outcome than maybe perhaps you would otherwise.
[00:26:49] Tom Gavaghan: I'm not, uh, not surprised by your answer at all, Melissa.
I think to your point, I think Adam will relate specifically about the data side. And I guess, Adam, to put you on the spot there, Could you just talk about that aspect as the CFO about the data, the importance of the data, but also like the accessibility of it such that you can probably react, you know, in a dynamic world that we live in and be able to react right to the situations that we're facing and ultimately where the company is ultimately going?
[00:27:14] Adam Drew: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, I love Melissa's answer. And part of what I love about working with Melissa is that combination of experience. I've never seen Melissa make a call on. anything without asking what the numbers say or what does the data say beforehand. And then, you know, supporting that with a been there, done that, got the t shirt or got the Christian Louboutins.
That's, you know, that's what really sort of more, I think, sets us apart in terms of how we make decisions. I guess in terms of data, you know, I am a data person. I think I alluded to it earlier, I love being able to use data to tell stories and, and I like to tell stories over and over again. I find the more that I tell those stories, the better I get at them.
And the more sure I've become of the facts that sit behind them, because ultimately, whilst I think there's a very important distinction to be drawn between data and facts, right? Data can be used to tell you anything if you look at it through the right lens, but the facts are always the facts. And so you have to get to the facts behind the story before you can properly make decisions.
And I think the, you know, the other part of that that I would go back to from Melissa's side is the point around expert advice. I think Melissa's network is significantly larger than mine. I mean, she's probably about the most connected person I know, but in terms of diversity of thought, it's absolutely critical, right?
You can, by the time you've got the facts and then you've got some expert Indians on them. Uh, and I use my team a lot. They give me, give me good counsel over all of this stuff. Um, I think, you know, you are nine tenths of the way towards making good decisions and mitigating risk if you've got facts and counsel on your side.
So, Yeah, I would say start with data, but make sure that you've got facts, not just opinions coming from that.
[00:29:13] Tom Gavaghan: Very good. So we've all got secrets, but today we're hearing it straight from our guests. So let's dive into our next segment, which is CFO secrets. And so, With you, Melissa, I'd like to start with what's one piece of advice you share with a finance leader looking to make a change in their org, and keep in mind, we have a very diverse audience here of people who are listening in, of people who are very senior and experienced and tenured in their roles, and also like analysts who are starting out and getting into the world post grad here, um, and in that vein as well, what, what would you, what do you wish you would have known as you started your career, Melissa?
[00:29:48] Melissa Di Donato: I think the one thing, if I had to pick just one, um, I would, I would, well ok i'm gonna, I don't have to pick one, i'm gonna pick two, um, and it's under one umbrella, is that ok Tom? So, I would say openness is my umbrella, but there's specifically two things I think that Um, around advice that I would encourage folks to have at any point of their life, be it personal or professional, no matter where you are in your career, is to be open, but to be adaptable, and to be focused on communication.
I was a CEO, um, of a tech business before, and about four years ago, I had an employee come to me at an early onset of Parkinson's disease, and he came to me and taught me about this importance to have the, this was before COVID, by the way, it was like four months before COVID. Um, to have this thing called AQ, where AQ is far, far more important than having EQ or IQ.
And AQ is the adaptability quotient. And being adaptable at any point of your life, personal, professional, at any part of your career, no matter where you are and what phase you're in, whether you're a CEO or you're starting out as, as an analyst, being adaptable is the single most important critical human trait that you could have.
And understanding that importance will, will define your happiness and your success in life. In every regard. Not every day is going to be a ladder. I relate to people's careers or one's career, my own, as a New York fire escape. And anyone that's ever watched Friends or any TV programs knows that a fire escape goes up and then it drops or it goes up and then it goes to the side and then it goes up again.
And that is what life is about, it's not a career ladder, it's your New York fire escape. So being adaptable is the single most important human trait I think that one should possess. Now when it comes to the second part of my umbrella being open is communication. Um, you need not just communicate to the others, What you see, what you're doing, right, but you also need to communicate what you want, and that's, that's something that we all often miss out on.
Um, whether you've tried something and they failed you need to communicate, whether you've done something and you've excelled and you need to communicate, whether you've made a decision people love, you need to communicate, if you've made decisions that people hate, You really need to communicate what the change, what the decisions were, why the change happened, why the decision was taken.
And if you communicate openly and honestly, whilst adapting to the world around you, that's probably, you know, those would be the two most important, um, bits of advice I would give. Now, the second part of the question was, what would I have wished I, I would have known? But I would say. I wish I knew, well I mean look, I was lucky, so this I kind of did, but it was purely by luck.
I, I had taken on mentors very early, um, and every career decision, if anyone's, um, you know, listened to any other podcast I've ever done, or anything I've written, I always talk about the importance of mentoring. Um, and I was incredibly lucky, super, super lucky that I happened to fall upon the right mentors.
In fact, the first mentor ever said to me, Melissa, you gotta get into this SAP thing it seems to be catching on. That was literally the bit of advice that changed my entire life. So I think that, um, I wish I had known how important mentors were going to be my whole life. Um, that would be one. Um, the second thing I would say is I, I wish I, I wish I knew what I was fighting for.
Um, I didn't know when I started my career that I would ever, I'd never dreamt of, like someone asked me, in fact, my chief of staff asked me in New York this week, when did you know you're going to be a CEO? I was like, am I a CEO? Oh, yeah, that's right, I am a CEO. Um, I, I still can't believe I'm a CEO. I mean, it's such a privilege, incredible role, that I never thought I'd be able to do that.
But, and, and I say that in a way that I never knew what I was always gonna fight to be or fight for. And I think that, um, my advice to my younger self or anyone, you know, at any point of their career, was try and think about what you actually want. And, and not what you want, but think more about what you're really capable of.
And I didn't ever, you know, Think I ever could be a CEO, and had I had Um, I believe in myself a little bit more, a little bit earlier on. And furthermore, how hard the journey would have been to be where I sit today. You know, maybe it would have been a little bit different, or I would have taken a different route, or, um, maybe each turn where there were challenges and, you know, I, I would have been judged in a way by responding to those challenges, right, wrong, or indifferent.
I would have handled things differently. I mean, I'm very proud of where I am, but. Um, I think that, you know, that bit of advice about, um, getting your right mentors, understanding the criticality around those mentors, um, understanding who you are, be yourself, find out what, not what you want to be only, but what you're actually capable of becoming, and then try and understand what you're fighting for.
Um, and if you do that, you have the best odds of being the most successful in what your dreams could possibly be.
[00:34:27] Holly McNulty: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a challenge that a lot of our listeners probably face, and it's very relatable. So, something that I hear regularly from our prospects is that there are a lot of challenges that they face, um, managing their day to day treasury operations just due to the ever changing economy.
So Adam, what's your best kept secret for staying ahead of the curve when everything seems to be changing constantly?
[00:34:54] Adam Drew: That's a good question. I think, I'm not just saying this because my boss has just said it, but communication is, is critical in this one as well. So, one of the things that I enjoy in my job is is intellectual debate, right?
It's having conversations with smart people in the executive capacity, in my organization, across the organization. I love getting out and I love talking to people. And I love having conversations and discussions that put me outside my comfort zone. When you're in your comfort zone, nothing's really happening.
And so when you're outside of that comfort zone, either there's two possibilities, I guess, either my beliefs are being challenged. And if my beliefs are being challenged, it means there's an alternative opinion, and then I get the chance to reflect on them and grow from, from that challenge. Or I'm speaking to somebody who knows something better than I do, and if that's the case, I'm learning, I'm growing, and I'm getting the opportunity to really gain insight and gain a perspective that I've never known before.
I think in finance, and you can probably say this across all of the disciplines in business, but you just can't have too many of those good debates. When it comes to staying ahead of the curve and it comes to consistent change, what those debates do is they stir the pot, right? They give you different scenarios to think about.
They cause concerns that you can then try and mitigate. And ultimately, they give you a range of perspectives. on, you know, what am I trying to solve for? What, what's the actual question that I'm going to get going to be faced with in the future? I think being challenged, it puts you that step ahead into your thinking.
And that's how you really stay ahead of the curve. If change comes along, if something comes up that you haven't dealt with before, what those intellectual debates and those conversations do is they, they mean you've either already thought about it, Or if you haven't already thought about it because it's come from so far out of left field, at least you know who you want in the room alongside you when you're trying to fix it.
You know, you want, it comes back to our point earlier around diversity of thought, it comes back to experts. You know, if you've been having those conversations and you know who you can go to and who you can trust in the business, You know, you might not be two steps ahead of the curve, but at least you're on the curve and you're heading in the right direction in terms of trying to solve for it.
[00:37:14] Holly McNulty: Communication and willingness to learn are just both so really important in our personal lives as well as in our career.
[00:37:21] Tom Gavaghan: I think what's one of the things that's interesting is, you know, having done a number of these now, There's a common theme. Everybody we've talked to at the CFO level has talked about, like, pushing your comfort level.
Like, discomfort is a good thing. Uh, and that speaks also to Melissa and AQ and adaptability and being able to do that, right? We cannot just be complacent in our, in what we do, uh, obviously personally and from a business perspective. Uh, we have to force ourselves to be uncomfortable and we always touch, you know, Hollywood will test.
That's a big thing for me. Uh, try something new, right? Try something new, like a podcast, perhaps. Um, well, we are short on time and I do want to close it out and I want to introduce, you know, the human element of things. And I want to ask, you know, I'll start with you, Melissa. We are, you know, we could do a whole other segment on this as well, perhaps one day, but you're not a CEO all the time.
What do you do in your free time? What do you do to decompress? Tell us a little more, um, about you.
[00:38:13] Melissa Di Donato: You know, I would say that I am a CEO all the time. I mean, I, I literally on a moment's notice, um, will take care and look over all of my, um, my employees and my customers always. And that, that, that is the, that is the burden one bears as a CEO.
You have the responsibility and accountability of people in perpetuity 24 hours a day. But my mind does need to relax. You need to decompress to carry that, right, to carry that load with you. One does need to rest their mind. I'm a runner, so I usually run 10K 12K a day, depending on how much time I, I'm an early riser.
I get up very early in the morning. As Adam will attest to, I think he put it on LinkedIn once I messaged him at 5 a. m., which I do, but you don't have to answer. It's just how my mind works. Everyone works at different time zones, as we all know. But I get up every day and run, except for usually Sundays, which is when I sleep.
For me, that's a great way to remove the stresses and, you know, really balance and start my day off well. Um, if I can't run or if I don't run, I, I recently, three years ago, I, got into horses because I had a little girl. So I go out and try to skate for 30 minutes on a horse, um, and give them a little tiny bit back to what they give me.
But that's how I tend to clear my mind of the responsibilities of that minute, even though I'm never not a CEO.
[00:39:23] Tom Gavaghan: Yep. You also have other hobbies too, if I can share, right? I think it was the second time we got to meet. We were at the, we were coming back from dinner, uh, team dinner and we're in the hotel lobby.
And there's a baby grand piano there, and Melissa just decides to start playing, uh, it was, it was, uh, Journey, don't stop, Journey, don't stop believing, and just decided in the middle of the hotel lobby just to, uh, serenade us all with, with, with her talents there, musically as well, which I appreciate. Um, as well, so very diversity.
And what about you, Adam, uh, to close it out on your end? Anything that you want to share as it relates to what you do when you're not a CFO? Understand you are a CFO all the time.
[00:40:01] Adam Drew: I work more, or at least from 5am some mornings. I guess for me, you know, it's family time as well. I've, uh, I've got the most incredible wife.
I've got, got three young girls, uh, and along with the family. Oh no, you had
[00:40:13] Melissa Di Donato: to mention your wife, right? So my husband listens to this. My husband's also very important for the record. So if my husband listens to this, he's also really incredible. Sorry, Adam, go ahead.
[00:40:24] Adam Drew: No, no, no, you're fine. Uh, yeah, I mean, we, we're, we're in a new house at the moment.
We moved in, uh, earlier this year and, and that, you know, that was always going to be a project. We, um, we don't have a roof on certain parts of the house at the moment. The rooms that we do have are letting in water, so we're going through a big, sort of, renovation project to get that fixed. Outside of that, you know, I'm a big sports fan.
I love my rugby, I love football. Pretty much any sport, I'll be honest, I, I will typically have a, uh, an update of some sort in my hand where I'm, uh, I'm catching up on the latest sports and, and notable events.
[00:41:04] Tom Gavaghan: Wow. What a, what a great conversation. I think we could have spent a lot more time, uh, with, with Adam and obviously with, with Melissa. Um, obviously. So, so, uh, Eloquent and articulate and explaining kind of their viewpoint on things. I would say from my side, Holly, the biggest takeaways from that conversation are a few things.
One, I think Adam is such a great representation of my experience in working with CFOs and I think the audience will pick up on that. I think his emphasis on data and making sense of data and using data is something we see as a, as a theme common amongst all CFOs and obviously is very, very relatable. I also think when you, when we look at our CEO and having met her and worked with her now for almost a year.
She is very data driven as well, and obviously, I think that's why that, that, that works with that relationship that those two have. The other takeaways I have are also, um, what, what I would consider is like communication and the importance of it being, we're both Caribbean employees, and I think we have seen just the heightened emphasis on communication from the top down in our company.
And I think it's, Evolving and changing what we need, how we work and, and how we grow, uh, as a company. And obviously it is an important attribute that has been established by, by Melissa. And in part, her ex executive committee, like Adam and being transparent and always kind of starting with why always explaining why it is we're doing certain things.
And then the last part, and probably the most important part. was the emphasis on diversity. Melissa's so proud and comments all the time about how the ex, the executive committee is very international and lives in places where they weren't born, holds multiple passports. And I think having that diverse experience, uh, and background at the executive committee level, like I said, in the interview, I think it, It's representative of actually what Kyriba stands for.
Not just with the people we have, but also the community we serve with so many different customers and so many different geographies with so many different Um, the industries that they work within, I'd love to hear from your side, Holly, what your takeaways were or any feedback on the interview, but also what you see on the diversity spectrum of things and, and how we see that maybe in as a microcosm within our own, you know, pre sales organization, uh, as an example.
[00:43:31] Holly McNulty: Yeah. Thanks, Tom. So, I agree with all of your points there and coming from my practitioner role, I can Thank you. Attest to the fact that Adam definitely has that, you know, data driven, numbers driven, um, personality that is so commonly seen with the CFOs. And what I think is kind of cool and unique to Melissa is the fact that she's also very data driven as well as having that, like, strategic, dreamer, like, type, um, personality as well.
So it makes them a really good, um, duo. And very, you know, dynamic and, and able to work together very well. Um, on the communication side, I agree, I've definitely seen a lot of, um, increase in communication. I think it's super important, um, across all organizations to make sure that the treasurers and the treasury team is communicating very closely with their CFOs and CEOs.
Um, I think communication is. So, um, I think that's super important throughout, um, any organization so that everyone always feels like they're in the loop and they know what's going on because then it, it creates more inclusion and it creates, um, an environment where people feel valued and feel that job satisfaction.
And to speak to the diversity part, that's also incredibly important because especially Our role in Kyriba, like working with the customers that we have across the globe, being able to have those different perspectives from different geographical locations, you know, the customers that we have in Japan might relate to something differently than the customers that we have in the Middle East.
And so being able to have members of our team that are represented from those different areas as well, really helps us to understand. better and helps us to be able to meet their expectations. as well. And, and about, you know, what I think Melissa spoke to as well is that we also have like a lot of different backgrounds.
They're not all finance majors
[00:45:43] Tom Gavaghan: and
[00:45:43] Holly McNulty: they have that breadth of experience in different areas that allow us to come together collectively and be able to use experiences that we've drawn from different, um, roles that we've had in the past and be able to serve our customers better.
[00:46:01] Tom Gavaghan: I couldn't agree more. I think it's one of the things I've learned in my, you know, 20 year career now, I guess, is that, that diversity, that ability to work and interact with so many different types of people and different walks of life and different regions is what I value, I think, the most out of this job or any job in the future.
It's so incredibly important. It energizes me, I think, and it challenges us as well to adapt and evolve as, as, uh, as we need to. And I think that speaks to what Melissa was talking about, about. AQ, right? We can always assess IQ and, and those types of things, but adaptability is so critically important, especially for today, uh, in today's world.
So, um, again, I look forward probably to having Melissa back on the show at some point, for sure. And Adam as well. Um, there's a lot more I think we could go through both from a finance and treasury perspective, but also I think. Probably on some of the other topics as well, such as horseback riding or music.
But we'll have to save that for the next one, right? To never miss an episode, subscribe wherever you listen. I'm Tom Gavaghan.
[00:47:05] Holly McNulty: And I'm Holly McNulty.
[00:47:07] Tom Gavaghan: And this is Liquid.